Curse

ZING · Jul 20, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

W/N should cast Rigor Mortis instead of all Warriors using Warrior's Cunning. And another weakness (every build has one) is against spike groups, your W/Mos just don't have enough power to heal spikes.

And spike groups are common nowdays. Even crappy spike groups could destroy your team.

Phenominal suggestion with the Rigor Mortis. Change officially made.

As for spike grps, there are 2 warriors with heal. Both of them have a 55 Energy pool to draw from. That's a substantial amount of healing. But you're right; it's VERY sketchy against a spike grp. That Curse Warrior who runs in first may not make it if he's not perfectly healed.

stumpy · Jul 20, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

It protects you against Final Thrust, which is a major threat.

true ... so your looking at casting protective spirit then while they whack away with say 40 damage * 8 every 1 seconds (sword attack speed animations) = 320 damge per second minus say 1 reversal of fortune per second = 40 damage in this example

for a total of 280 damage per second?

ZING · Jul 20, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I still don't get what everybody's push for rezzing is all about. This is a spike group pure and simple. A spike group that only has a limited pool of energy. It's a big enough pool for the group plan, but it's not enough for a DoT situation.

If the two healers die, or too much times passes before the group gains an advantage it's done. There's no way around the fact that martyr + restore condition + hex removal can only be used for so long, before Warriors start getting into trouble.

You shouldn't really write off the group so quickly though. When you're going up against it, the questions for the opposing team always are: who do you target first? Who are your priority targets in an all Warrior build?

The more time you take to answer those questions the more time this build has to run up to your group, and spike one of your characters dead. Indecision is not something you want to have against this group.

stumpy · Jul 20, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

which is why i think this group has a shot ... at least to throw all flavours off.

stumpy · Jul 20, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

another idea you may want to invest in too ...

zealous hilts = sack a minus 1 regen and steal 1 energy per hit ...

in comparison ... your healing monks will currently only be getting 1 energy every 3 seconds due to the -1 regen on your off hand foci ...

throw on zealous hilts ... give them no regen every 3 seconds ... have them gain 3 energy every 3 seconds in melee battle (3 hits in 3 seconds and that doesnt include any sort of cyclone / multiple target damage) to help with energy regen.

just a thought

theclam · Jul 20, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumpy

true ... so your looking at casting protective spirit then while they whack away with say 40 damage * 8 every 1 seconds (sword attack speed animations) = 320 damge per second minus say 1 reversal of fortune per second = 40 damage in this example

for a total of 280 damage per second?

I never said I could take 8, just 4, since ZING said 4 Warriors will be attacking. Swords attack once every 1.33 seconds, not once a second. I'll get hit about six times every 2 seconds. Reversal of Fortune will completely nullify two of those hits. Guardian will block about 43-50% of the hits (let's take it at 45%).

6 Hits/2s.
- 45% (Guardian) = 3.3 Hits/2s.
- 2 Hits/2.25s (RoF) = 1.7 Hits/2s.

For the sake of argument, let's say I get 45 from Divine Favor. Let's say the average Warrior hit does 40 damage (regular hits will do a bit less, skills will do more).

45 HP = 1.125 Hits

1.3 Hits/2s.
- 1.125 Hits/2.25s (RoF DF bonus) = 0.8 Hits/2s.
- 1.125 Hits/5s (Guardian DF bonus) = 0.35 Hits/2s.

0.35 Hits/2s = 7DPS.

So, if I continually cast RoF and Guardian every time their recharge timer runs out, I'll only take 7 DPS. Mend Ailment will heal me for about 105 if I have two conditions on me. Shielding Hands would greatly reduce the Warriors' DPS, but make Reversal of Fortune less useful.

Now the math is very rough, but you see what I'm getting at. I exaggerated a little bit. Still, a Protection Monk should be able to survive against 4 Warriors in this build without taking much damage, at least until his mana runs out. Most teams run two Monks, so there should be no problem beating this build.

I think what would be really dangerous would be 4 W/Es using Hammers and Aftershock. With good communication and a bit of luck, you can put two each on two Monks and kill very quickly. 6 Warriors with Swords and the same skills is an awful build. At the very least, throw an axe or two in there so you're not constantly overlapping Gash and Sever Artery.

stumpy · Jul 20, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

okay i was unsure of 1 or 1.5 attack speed ... but that helps what i failed to comprehend was in your post you stated simply prot spiri + mend ailment + reversal ... which wouldnt cut it. guardian can make a big factor.

I was going to also say that ... w/me are good but knockdowns may be crucial in knocking out a monk.

but in a 2 monk team it is unlikely that both are protection monks. so lets say you do have only 4 guys only you ... that you may be able to manage leaving the other monk vulnerable to 40 * 4 = 160 damage every 1.33 seconds excluding any DoT and self healing he uses. he will likely go down fast. But the 4 warriors on you would be getting frusterated.

ZING · Jul 20, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by theclam

I never said I could take 8, just 4, since ZING said 4 Warriors will be attacking. Swords attack once every 1.33 seconds, not once a second. I'll get hit about six times every 2 seconds. Reversal of Fortune will completely nullify two of those hits. Guardian will block about 43-50% of the hits (let's take it at 45%).

6 Hits/2s.
- 45% (Guardian) = 3.3 Hits/2s.
- 2 Hits/2.25s (RoF) = 1.7 Hits/2s.

For the sake of argument, let's say I get 45 from Divine Favor. Let's say the average Warrior hit does 40 damage (regular hits will do a bit less, skills will do more).

45 HP = 1.125 Hits

1.3 Hits/2s.
- 1.125 Hits/2.25s (RoF DF bonus) = 0.8 Hits/2s.
- 1.125 Hits/5s (Guardian DF bonus) = 0.35 Hits/2s.

0.35 Hits/2s = 7DPS.

So, if I continually cast RoF and Guardian every time their recharge timer runs out, I'll only take 7 DPS. Mend Ailment will heal me for about 105 if I have two conditions on me. Shielding Hands would greatly reduce the Warriors' DPS, but make Reversal of Fortune less useful.

Now the math is very rough, but you see what I'm getting at. I exaggerated a little bit. Still, a Protection Monk should be able to survive against 4 Warriors in this build without taking much damage, at least until his mana runs out. Most teams run two Monks, so there should be no problem beating this build.

I think what would be really dangerous would be 4 W/Es using Hammers and Aftershock. With good communication and a bit of luck, you can put two each on two Monks and kill very quickly. 6 Warriors with Swords and the same skills is an awful build. At the very least, throw an axe or two in there so you're not constantly overlapping Gash and Sever Artery.

Re-do your calculations to take into account:
Battle Rage on two of the Warriors
"Fear Me!"
Ether Feast
Ether Lord
Weaken Armor

And this is most important -- a Monk is NOT the highest priority target. As stated, Hex casters go first. Then the group comes lookin for your kind. And the more people this group kills the more time it can dedicate without worry to killing the next person.

You really think your protection monk can hold off 4 Warrior's with time on their side?

nicosharp · Jul 20, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

So who is leading these warriors into the slaughterhouse? MOOOO!

Nash · Jul 20, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

SpaceFreak, their fearless leader with Divine Boon, of course!

The Red Knight · Jul 20, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

blah gw being slow =[

The Red Knight · Jul 20, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

(2) W/R
Attribute Points:
Strength (11 + 1)
Swordsmanship (11 + 1)
Wilderness Survial (8)
Major Vigor Rune
Equipment:
Gladiator Armor
+ 8 Energy
PvP Sword with Fortitude Grip
Skills
Battle Rage {E}
Sprint
Warrior’s Cunning
Frozen Soil
Sever Artery
Gash
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust

why use sprint with battle rage thats retarded and warriors cunning is pretty bad too =/

ZING · Jul 21, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Knight

why use sprint with battle rage thats retarded and warriors cunning is pretty bad too =/

Battle Rage requires built up adrenaline. Sprint is energy based. Warrior's cunning is used because it's a spike team -- and a spike team isn't very good if it doesn't deal damage.

The Red Knight · Jul 21, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

yeah but you just hit a target close to you 4 times GASP YOU GOT ENERGY FOR BATTLE RAGE OMGUD!

ZING · Jul 21, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Knight

yeah but you just hit a target close to you 4 times GASP YOU GOT ENERGY FOR BATTLE RAGE OMGUD!

And what happens at the beginning of the battle when -- OMGUD -- you've got no adrenaline, and you are getting spiked to shiet on your way to attacking a target that is moving back as fast as you're moving foward.

Or -- OMGUD -- you just finished killing of an enemy and you've got to stop to cast Frozen Soil, while the rest of your party runs off to spike the next guy. You just used a non-attack skill (in soil), so Rage over, and you're left all alone making you a nice juice target -- or better yet, because you're taking too long to get to the next target you're effecting your teams ability to spike.

OMGUD -- t3h l33t death. r0x0rs 4 t3h build!

Battle Rage is a cheap spamable adrenaline boost, which is its main reason for being part of the W.R build. To use it as a sprint is asking for trouble.

And if you think it's a bad choice recommend something better; no need to be a jerk. I want feedback not ignorance.

UberRusty · Jul 21, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

why use sprint with battle rage thats retarded and warriors cunning is pretty bad too =/

The posts above already stated a change that W/N is casting Rigor Mortis.

Quote:

yeah but you just hit a target close to you 4 times GASP YOU GOT ENERGY FOR BATTLE RAGE OMGUD!

It takes around 5 - 7 seconds to build up aldrenaline once you actually are ON the target, and even more if they start running. Then there are the collison detection stops, etc. Sprint is a great skill to use running INTO battle, but once you're hitting the target Sprint is useless.

That's why I suggest one of the Warrior bring Charge! as an elite or something. In fact ZING you could make one of the Warriors a "party buffer battery" with skills such as Watch Yourself! and Charge! among other things.

Lodurr · Jul 21, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I see what you're saying about this being a spike group. But with just a little tweaking, this group could be viable in long battles as well.

The W/Mo healers really won't be able to keep up with the pace of damage. They only have 2 regen arrows (the Energy regen -1 ankhs would really kill their mana in a long battle), which means it takes about 7 seconds to regen 5 mana to cast a single heal--a heal that won't be benefitted by Divine Favor. I would suggest bringing Word of Healing as your {E} for the biggest bang for your buck.

A better approach to healing would be to have 2 Life Bonders. Each Life Bonder could Life Bond 2 other people, and use only signets and adrenal skills to make up for their 0 Energy regen. They could use Purge Signet for removing conditions and hexes, and Battle Rage to keep the adrenal attacks flowing. This would also reduce the effectiveness of damage spikes, and slow down the damage to a pace your half-Mos can keep up with. I have tried Purge Signet w/ Life Bond and it doesn't kill the enchantments, even though your energy drops to 0.

I don't think any team can pump out conditions fast enough to be a big threat. Blind and Cripple are the biggest threats to this build, and those must be the least-used Conditions in ToPK builds since they're anti-Warrior. One-shot condition removers should be sufficient, but literally everyone should bring them. That way your W/Mos can bring better heals instead.

Plague Touch is so much better than Plague Signet. It's unlikely that all the conditions will be piled on one guy, even if he trots out in front of the enemy first. After that, it's more of an advantage to get rid of a condition RIGHT AWAY whenever it pops up, rather than having to wait up to 20 seconds, then sacrifice some life just for the advantage of spreading it to other enemies. Besides, what would a group of casters have to fear from being Blinded?

Enchantment removal is a must. It will be visibly and obviously clear to the other team which of their guys is being targeted. I would suggest the W/Me bring Drain Enchantment, and the W/N bring Rend Enchantments.

The W/Rs should also bring Nature's Renewal. This is a team that doesn't rely on enchantments at all, and enchantments and hexes will also be its biggest problem. Sprint is also unnecessary if you've got Battle Rage already. If he really needs to run off, he can just whack someone a few times first, or recast BR earlier.

I think it's unnecessary for literally all the sword bearers to bring Sever Artery. Two should be sufficient to keep the target constantly bleeding--maybe even just one. If you only have room for three attack skills, the bring Gash, Galrath, and Final.

Re: Zealous hilts, the text reads (as of the last time I read it), "Energy gain on hit: 1." It's not stealing the energy. Everyone carrying Vampiric hilts on switch would be a good idea though, since it's adding free damage, so long as you're hitting often enough.

Finally, Ether Lord is weak at mana stealing unless you've got 12 in Inspiration. 7 seconds of Energy degen of 2 is only 5 mana (1 arrow = 1 mana/3 sec). At the same level, Energy Tap would be stealing about 9 or 10.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 21, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Wow, to think someone came up with this!

4v4 games would make sense for builds like this, now I'm inspired to make one...

4 warriors...

1 w/mo
1 w/n
1 w/me
1 w/e

Hmm...